Q: Black Diamond Sabretooth Clip Crampon | |
Anonymous
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Hi, how much is performance lost on waterfall ice when using the clip as opposed to the pro version? I have these in the pro and they are great but sadly very worn now. In the stainless steel I wish to up grade. I am heading on expedition and I can see that the clip has benefits of catering to over-boots, however I do not want to loose too much technical ability. I take it that the clip does work well with an over-boot like the brooks-ranger? Thanks and look forward to your response.
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climbhigher
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For technical ice, I personally would not use it. I find the security is not nearly as good in the toe. I have never not gotten lots of wiggle and you are relying a lot on the strap. If it went, you would blow the crampon. Unless you really need the clip, stick with the pro model for much better peace of mind.
Matt
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jeepnphreak
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Not only is the front toe clip not as secure as said above the sabertooth has small flat fronts point as really don't do well much over WI 2-3. The Sabertooths are more for glacier and mounteering. Try looking at the Black diamond cyborg if you are wanting black diamond and water ice performance.
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blackfriday
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LOL! Why didn't anyone tell me not to climb WI5 in Sabretooth? First thing first, Clip version is safe as any as long as you pay attention to the condition of the strap. My partner used clip for a long time, including expedition from Denali to South America. I used clip version of G12. They work fine. Sabretooth are excellent on ice.
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ErikW
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Have to call serious BS on jeepnphreak's advice... seriously, guy, do you climb ice at all aside from a shot of you on TR? The Sabertooth's are specifically designed for agressive alpine and vert ice. They excel on steep ice, WI4 and WI5 no problem - and they are most definitely NOT "more for glacier and mountaineering."
As for clip v. pro attachment, the first deciding factor should be how the toe profile of your boot mates with the spacing on the clip posts. Specifically if your boot's profile is very narrow it will seat further forward relative to the posts, which then results in your front welt/toe overhanging a fraction of the frontpoints. If it does it too much, this then has two negative effects: one, you minimize how much front point can penetrate the ice before your boot bottoms out and, two, the secondary points on the 'pons will be too far back to act as stabilizers when you drop your heal. This second point is the more important one because the end result is that you have to maintain the horizontal attitude of your boot using your calf muscles alone (read: those calf muscles will flame out quick).
This toe overlap isn't an endemic problem with the clip version of the crampons, it has to do with the mating of the crampons to different boot models (same happens with pro systems and boots). I used the clip version of the sabertooths with my la sportiva K3's, and Nuptse's for years and the setup was perfect - climbed WI5 domestically, took them to the Himalaya, M5+ at 18K ft... the crampons did it all. My newest boots (La Sportiva Batura) have a really narrow toe profile and so don't fit as well, so for those I use the pro version. But again, it's just how those specific boots are designed.
For my trip to the Himalaya I specifically brought the clip version because I liked the way they fit on my Nuptse double boots. There was no side-to-side play, they fit perfect. They also worked with my Trang
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ErikW
| Posted: January 9th, 2011 Edited: January 9th, 2011 | Quote, Reply |
....They also worked with my Trango EVO S boots which don't have a front welt.
In 'theory' the plastic is less durable than a steel toe bail- but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who's busted a modern clip version - be it BD or Grivel (check out all the pics of Steve House and how many have him on clip versions of the G12... hell, he brought the clip version on his alpine ascent of the Rupal Face, if that's not an endorsement that that style is dependable I don't know what is).
It's all about fit. Clip work better with overboots, supergaiters versatility between boots (especially if some don't have toe welts). Pro rocks for being able to move the bail forward and back to get the sweet spot for positioning the toe relative to the secondary points (with Sabertooth's anyway). If your boot mates well with the clip version, you're not going to lose any performance relative to the pro version. Hope that helps.
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jeepnphreak
| Posted: January 10th, 2011 Edited: January 10th, 2011 | Quote, Reply |
OK Eric first of all that pic is the first route just after I got cleared to climb after my rotor cuff surgery, so Im happy to be climbing after being off ice for a year, so thththhtbbbb.
Next I still dont agree that the sabortooth are great for WI5, can a strong climber kick up a WI5 in them, you bet you can. I used a pair of Petzl Vasks for years on WI 4-5 same for the sabertooths. But I find the sweet spot for those are in the WI3 or so. for more difficult than WI 4 use Grevil G14s.
If the OP really want aggressive ice poons then something with a vertical tip that more closely mimics the tip of a ice tool is a better choice. But for light weight and fast ice climbing the sabertooth are great.
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ErikW
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Ok, I shouldn't have popped off about the pic, that was lame of me - I knew it when I wrote it. My apologies. And congrats to jeep for getting back out there after RC surgery, must be a difficult road back.
To the OP, if you've worn down your pro sabertooth's, then chances are you've put in some good mileage with them and know how they climb. Again, as I mentioned above, if the clip sabertooth mates well with your boot, you won't loose any performance. As to whether sabertooths (or horizontals in general) have their place on hard ice, here's feedback from folks far more versed on the subject than me:
"Horizontal frontpoints work far better for most pure ice climbing than vertical frontpoints... I challenge any climber currently on vertical frontpoints to climb five pitches on a good horizontal frontpoint crampon and feel the difference." - Will Gadd (Ice & Mixe Climbing: Modern Technique)
"Anyone that tells you the vertical front point crampons climb ice better than the horizontal crampons is just uneducated or naive enough to repeat some salesman's logic. Either way it is crap...excuse me.. false/bad info. Because vertical front points don't climb better and in most cases they climb worse. On pure water ice the horizontal front points excel in every condition." -Dane Burns, coldthistle.blogspot.com
Actually that blog post by Dane about crampons is a good one to read (ALL of his posts are phenomenal, he's THE legit gear junkie/tester), as he gets into fit problems with certain boot combos and talks about usefulness of monos, dual verts and horizontals... , here's the link: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02/these-freakn-pons.html
Have fun on your expedition.
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